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Post by sonicsound on Mar 23, 2006 2:19:45 GMT -5
It's a tough one because so many are dying. But you have to think long term. The last thing we need to do is pull out before we should(whenever that is, I'm not a General so I'll leave that to the military to decide. They should know best!).That would be so much worse in so many different ways.
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Post by hotroots on Mar 26, 2006 23:22:11 GMT -5
vietnam.
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Post by tetherednchained on Apr 22, 2006 0:31:07 GMT -5
OK Ted............ Vietnam- This from: 25thaviation.org/id275.htm#vietnam_war_casualtiesAmerican Deaths All US Forces KIA in Vietnam - 58,169US Army Soldiers KIA in Vietnam - 38,190US Army Infantrymen KIA in Vietnam - 20,460US Army Helicopter Crewmen KIA in Vietnam - 3,007US Army Scouts KIA in Vietnam - 1,127US Army Tankers KIA in Vietnam - 725US Marines Killed In Action in Vietnam - 14,836The highest loss-rate for any MOS - 11E (Armor Crewman) 27% KIAIraq- This from: www.antiwar.com/casualties/
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Post by pdn on Apr 22, 2006 1:13:25 GMT -5
So what do those numbers tell me? That the number of U.S. troops dying has increased, dramatically, since we "liberated" the country. Just throwing up numbers doesn't justify the need for this optional war.
The Vietnam comparison still stands, simply for the fact that we're mired there, and the Bush administration's incompetent planning has brought us to where we are.
Someone want to tell me, again, what Iraq has to do with a war on terror? What was our last strategic mission targeting Al-Qaeda? Why are our ports still as vulnerable as they were on September 11th? Why isn't there better security at our nation's nuclear plants, or our food and potable water sources... the places we know Al-Qaeda and other terrorists group want to target? Why haven't the 9-11 Commission's recommendations been put into full effect?
Bush's war on terror is a farce, and shame on every "American" who thinks we've done anything in the past three years to make ourselves safer. We've succeeded in feeding the military machine, in expanding our defense budget over that of our social services budget, in billions and billions of dollars in contracts to Bechtel and Haliburton.
Bush's agenda? Cut education funding, cut student loans, make it more difficult for people to declare bankruptcy, Medicare reform that further confuses the hell out of seniors, back out of international treaties like Kyoto and the CTBT, send a lunatic as our representative at the United Nations, rack up one of the largest budget deficits in the country's history, "Clear Skies" environmental initiatives that tell corporations that reducing their emissions is OPTIONAL, oh, and cutting taxes for all of us who make over a quarter of a million dollars a year.
So when I see that number, tetheredNchained... I think it's disgusting that 2375 American soldiers have died. I think it's more disgusting that the stupid fucking chimp who runs this country invokes their names on an almost daily basis and uses it to shame people like me, who criticize his decisions. I support our troops... I want them to stop dying for no reason.
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Post by tetherednchained on Apr 22, 2006 2:07:36 GMT -5
So what do those numbers tell me? That the number of U.S. troops dying has increased, dramatically, since we "liberated" the country. Just throwing up numbers doesn't justify the need for this optional war. The Vietnam comparison still stands, simply for the fact that we're mired there, and the Bush administration's incompetent planning has brought us to where we are. Someone want to tell me, again, what Iraq has to do with a war on terror? What was our last strategic mission targeting Al-Qaeda? Why are our ports still as vulnerable as they were on September 11th? Why isn't there better security at our nation's nuclear plants, or our food and potable water sources... the places we know Al-Qaeda and other terrorists group want to target? Why haven't the 9-11 Commission's recommendations been put into full effect? Bush's war on terror is a farce, and shame on every "American" who thinks we've done anything in the past three years to make ourselves safer. We've succeeded in feeding the military machine, in expanding our defense budget over that of our social services budget, in billions and billions of dollars in contracts to Bechtel and Haliburton. Bush's agenda? Cut education funding, cut student loans, make it more difficult for people to declare bankruptcy, Medicare reform that further confuses the hell out of seniors, back out of international treaties like Kyoto and the CTBT, send a lunatic as our representative at the United Nations, rack up one of the largest budget deficits in the country's history, "Clear Skies" environmental initiatives that tell corporations that reducing their emissions is OPTIONAL, oh, and cutting taxes for all of us who make over a quarter of a million dollars a year. So when I see that number, tetheredNchained... I think it's disgusting that 2375 American soldiers have died. I think it's more disgusting that the stupid fucking chimp who runs this country invokes their names on an almost daily basis and uses it to shame people like me, who criticize his decisions. I support our troops... I want them to stop dying for no reason. Facts are hard to dispute Mr. cherrybomb. When you are challenged with the facts you try to debate with emotions. I will never debate with someone that is an emotional mess. There are so many emotional ties in that mess that I will not touch it. I might make you cry with my answer.
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Post by hotroots on Apr 22, 2006 14:56:49 GMT -5
funny that you fail to mention the civilian loss.
and besides, regardless of the numbers, the same basic principles are at work here. mired.
over 160,000 troops were killed in the civil war, and that war was a lot more "justified" than either of these.
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Post by Users: x on Apr 22, 2006 15:20:38 GMT -5
Fearless Leaders: "We have proof that they have wmds." *oops*
General Shinseki: "We'd need 200,000(?) troops to secure Iraq." Rumsfeld: "We'll do it with far less troops." *oops*
FL: "No wmds? Well then, they...they have funded terrorism." *hmmm*
FL: "He has committed human atrocities."
Okay, but who made us the world's police? Human atrocities also exist in the US like the poor, the impoverished inner city schools, the elderly, those that can't attend every Garbage concert, etc..
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Post by pdn on Apr 22, 2006 21:35:22 GMT -5
Facts are hard to dispute Mr. cherrybomb. When you are challenged with the facts you try to debate with emotions. I will never debate with someone that is an emotional mess. There are so many emotional ties in that mess that I will not touch it. I might make you cry with my answer. I replied to your facts. The fact is, our troops have been dying at a much higher rate since the country was liberated. If you equate the bodycount as a measure of efficacy, I would take issue with that. As for making me cry, I'm not in the Debate thread expecting a hug. I am, though, expecting people to defend their positions, rather than absentmindedly labeling me as an emotional mess. I'm capable of changing my mind. Why don't you convince me to do so?
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Post by sometimes the voices argue on Apr 22, 2006 22:30:50 GMT -5
i dont think it matters how many people die a death is a death, there isnt a measurment for sadness i dont think one can compare two wars and say this one is better because less people died.
i dont really know how to say what i mean
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Post by pdn on Apr 28, 2006 3:32:36 GMT -5
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Post by tetherednchained on May 12, 2006 0:33:27 GMT -5
Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:40 a.m. EDT
Dean: We Oppose Gay Marriage Too Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean has angered supporters in the gay and lesbian community by stating that his party opposes gay marriage.
Appearing on the Christian Broadcasting Network’s program "The 700 Club” on Wednesday, Dean declared: "The Democratic Party platform from 2004 says that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what it says. I think where we may take exception with some religious leaders is that we believe in inclusion, that everybody deserves to live with dignity and respect, and that equal rights under the law are important.” Dean, however, "misrepresented” the party platform, according to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, which has returned a $5,000 contribution from the Democratic Party in a protest over Dean’s remarks. According to the blog PageOneQ, the Democratic Party’s actual platform reads: "We support full inclusion of gay and lesbian families in the life of our nation and seek equal responsibilities, benefits and protection for these families. In our country, marriage has been defined at the state level for 200 years, and we believe it should continue to be defined there. We repudiate President Bush’s divisive effort to politicize the Constitution by pursuing a ‘Federal Marriage Amendment.’” The Task Force’s executive director Matt Foreman said in a statement: "Governor Dean is wrong about what the Democratic platform says about marriage equality. Disturbingly, this is not the first time he has misrepresented this important and affirming plank, and he has been asked before to correct the record and to cease making these misleading statements.” In an effort to drum up support in the Christian community before the 2006 midterm elections, Dean also stated on the show: "One of the misconceptions about the Democratic Party is that we're godless and that we don't have any values. "The truth is, we have an enormous amount in common with the Christian community, and particularly with the evangelical Christian community. "One of the biggest things that Democrats worry about is the materialism of our country, what's on television that our kids are seeing, and the lack of spirituality. And that's something we have in common." Dean even tried to downplay the Democratic Party’s traditional strong pro-choice stance, saying: "I think what we have in common with the evangelical community is that we ought to have a lot fewer abortions than we do. The abortions have actually gone up in the last few years. We should have far fewer abortions ... we ought to make sure that there's not just abstinence, but family planning used to get rid of abortion, and that is something that we share.” Asked if it is important for Democrats to tap into the evangelical community to win in 2006, he responded: "I think it's important, and I think it's a good idea for the Democratic Party.” But if Dean’s comments were designed to garner support from evangelicals, they no doubt alienated many in the gay and lesbian community. In his statement, Foreman said: "Governor Dean’s record on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues since becoming DNC chair has been sorely and sadly lacking. "In light of Governor Dean’s pandering and insulting interview with the Christian Broadcasting Network, we have decided to return the DNC’s recent $5,000 contribution to us.”
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Post by hotroots on May 12, 2006 2:06:13 GMT -5
pffffft, i voted for dennis kucinich. (in primaries, i mean).
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Post by dresdendoll on May 12, 2006 21:48:37 GMT -5
Let me see.
Death Penalty: BEST FUCKING THING.. ever. I love it. Better yet, I ADORE IT. I may just be an angry person, but I think if you're going to hurt people.. whether it be women, men, kids, or animals damnit, then you're going to feel someones wrath... if that means through a needle, or some 7 foot tall dude in jail, they have it coming.
Religion: I fucking hate it.
Gay marriages: Looks who you're fucking talking to. HELLO?
War: I hate this fucking country, and our president, and I say, if you're going to fight like little boys, then go ahead and blow yourself up.. or better yet Iraq... come get bush and torture and have your way with him.
Abortion: I'm not for it, but there's no way a human being with a dick is going to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body.
Politics and religion, combined or sperate, are IMO, a waste of time and life. There is no point. Live your OWN life and start thinking for yourself. And go watch White Oleadner and learn from what Ingrid has to say about it all.
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Post by Volk on May 27, 2006 18:28:41 GMT -5
I say "make love, fuck war". Although,sometimes things are necessary. And on the opposite side of the coin, there ARE alternatives. Nothing will change until we hold politicians accountable to do the RIGHT thing. They do not speak for us.
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Post by Jen on Jul 1, 2006 6:28:03 GMT -5
Politicians are lying crooks. The End.
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Post by Jen on Jul 1, 2006 6:33:44 GMT -5
Let me see. Death Penalty: BEST FUCKING THING.. ever. I love it. Better yet, I ADORE IT. I may just be an angry person, but I think if you're going to hurt people.. whether it be women, men, kids, or animals damnit, then you're going to feel someones wrath... if that means through a needle, or some 7 foot tall dude in jail, they have it coming. Religion: I fucking hate it. Gay marriages: Looks who you're fucking talking to. HELLO? War: I hate this fucking country, and our president, and I say, if you're going to fight like little boys, then go ahead and blow yourself up.. or better yet Iraq... come get bush and torture and have your way with him. Abortion: I'm not for it, but there's no way a human being with a dick is going to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. Politics and religion, combined or sperate, are IMO, a waste of time and life. There is no point. Live your OWN life and start thinking for yourself. And go watch White Oleadner and learn from what Ingrid has to say about it all. Your religion answer: All of them, some of them, are one in particular? Ever hear of (true) gnosticism? I don't see how anyone could hate gnosticism... "seeker of truth" unless you hate "truth"? And don't get me started with the Buddha... what a lying son a bitch, right??? Yeah.. what a fucking murderer! He was just so HORRIBLE!
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ShyGirl
Sanitation Engineer
there's a sky that's changing
Posts: 107
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Post by ShyGirl on Jul 6, 2006 16:24:57 GMT -5
Question for anyone against gay marriage: what's your reasoning behind your position? Why don't you think gays should marry?
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Post by ParanoidGirl89 on Jul 12, 2006 3:41:38 GMT -5
Let me see. Death Penalty: BEST FUCKING THING.. ever. I love it. Better yet, I ADORE IT. I may just be an angry person, but I think if you're going to hurt people.. whether it be women, men, kids, or animals damnit, then you're going to feel someones wrath... if that means through a needle, or some 7 foot tall dude in jail, they have it coming. Religion: I fucking hate it. Gay marriages: Looks who you're fucking talking to. HELLO? War: I hate this fucking country, and our president, and I say, if you're going to fight like little boys, then go ahead and blow yourself up.. or better yet Iraq... come get bush and torture and have your way with him. Abortion: I'm not for it, but there's no way a human being with a dick is going to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. Politics and religion, combined or sperate, are IMO, a waste of time and life. There is no point. Live your OWN life and start thinking for yourself. And go watch White Oleadner and learn from what Ingrid has to say about it all. Your religion answer: All of them, some of them, are one in particular? Ever hear of (true) gnosticism? I don't see how anyone could hate gnosticism... "seeker of truth" unless you hate "truth"? And don't get me started with the Buddha... what a lying son a bitch, right??? Yeah.. what a fucking murderer! He was just so HORRIBLE! Not that I'm trying to mess up your point, but Buddhism isn't really a religion (in the most common sense of the term), it's a way of life.
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Post by BTweety04 on Jul 13, 2006 22:55:09 GMT -5
Same difference.
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Post by Jen on Jul 18, 2006 3:40:42 GMT -5
I agree with BTweety - same difference. I've heard the Dalai Lama call it a religion. I trust him to know about Buddhism
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